tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20884765.comments2009-11-10T08:19:34.620-06:00Liturgical NerdsJoshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00423390450289674502noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20884765.post-64764647746552715072009-11-10T08:19:34.620-06:002009-11-10T08:19:34.620-06:00Hey Josh,
Very interesting post, as I have wonder...Hey Josh,<br /><br />Very interesting post, as I have wondered about this issue in my own ministry. It seems to me though that you are assuming that sacramental authority for local pastors is derived from the Discipline, but I have been under the impression that it is derived from the authority of the bishop. If that were true, would it not stand to reason that the bishop (and by extension the DS) would be perfectly able to "expand" that provisional authority beyond the local charge for the purpose of allowing the local pastor to celebrate sacraments in other places?<br /><br />Now that whole theory seems crazy to me to begin with - having lay people consecrate "under the authority of the bishop." I've thought about this a while and I think that if the church could simply develope some sort of mechanism for "honorable discharge" from ordained ministry this would solve several problems at once:<br /><br />We could ordain our new pastors right out of seminary and there would be no ambiguity about their status. We could still have a 3-year provisional membership in the conference that could include extra-close oversight (as is currently the case) and could be ended at any time by "honorable discharge."<br /><br />This mechanism would also provide a way to amicably get rid of clergy who are not competent to this call, that have perhaps been passed around from one church to another for years, doing damage across the conference.<br /><br />Finally, it would also shorten the ordination service's length since there would be no need to "comission" the new elders and deacons AND ordain those who are finishing the provisional process at the same Annual Conference. We could ordain the new folks at the ordination service and then have some seperate "graduation to full membership" party for the 3-year people.<br /><br />This would leave unresolved the issue of local pastors however. I will have to think on that one longer. We run the risk (and indeed may already be there to some extent) of developing two differnt kinds of United Methodism - ordained elder churches with seminary-educated sacramental leadership and all the contours that will come with that; and local pastor churches with a non-sacramental leadership with a different sort of education and style all their own.Rev. Daniel McLain Hixonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09314281652215835311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20884765.post-15937400802628051882009-08-28T22:49:39.118-05:002009-08-28T22:49:39.118-05:00Well said.
You're right to suggest that sexua...Well said.<br /><br />You're right to suggest that sexuality and spirituality cannot be divorced. But is that really what is going on here?<br /><br />I read this article the other day when you posted it to Twitter. As with all areas of our lives, I believe we must discipline ourselves in our sexual behavior. I think Rev. Haffner is suggesting a restructuring of sexual mores, not a release from inherited strictures. And I believe that her assertions are theological, or spiritual, rooted in her beliefs about who we are as human beings, who God is (or, the source of that which is spiritual since UU persons do not necessarily believe in a god or gods), and how then we should live.<br /><br />I disagree with Haffner's account, not because it divorces the sexual from the spiritual, but because it relates the sexual to the spiritual in a way that I think is idolatrous. Whereas the ancients made it clear that certain acts of sexual gratification were done in devotion to false gods, we do not. We would rather deceive ourselves, saying that if we do not satisfy our desires, then we will ultimately live unhappy lives, or, at worst, act on those desires in shameful or disgraceful ways.<br /><br />If you reread Haffner's article, you will find that the Religious Institute's proposed sexual ethic places human gratification in sexual relationships as the highest value. As long as we are consensual, non-exploitive, honest, etc., there is no problem. This sounds like a spirituality of centered on the self, rather than on a transcendent Other.<br /><br />I disagree with Haffner, but in terms different than those you have chosen. The God Christians confess has taken a bit more of an interest in our sexual lives, and whether the fulfillment of our sexual desires should or should not be in covenanted relationships. My sexual choices are derived from my relationship with my Creator, not simply with what makes me happy. And guidelines for those choices have been given in Scripture and taught by the Church, and amount to much more than my personal gratification, which, ultimately, is to God's glory.HeresyWatchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03661520852704176297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20884765.post-76153755340389843912009-07-29T17:25:56.586-05:002009-07-29T17:25:56.586-05:00Who educates the congregation, in the first place?...Who educates the congregation, in the first place? I think it is a matter, perhaps, of many elders/deacons/local pastors being uncomfortable with teaching and preaching the differences the church draws between those who are ordained and those who are not. The laity are generally not concerned with such things, and given the opportunity, will often voice that if asked, they would be glad to "do communion." I say this, because I've heard it myself. There is a heartbreaking lack of understanding about the sacramental Presence in communion. After all, how can one explain such a transcendent event in human words, outside of the words of institution, which sound like history to many?Cynthia Thomas Hinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13309371765036925868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20884765.post-24562181065787060452009-07-29T17:12:42.287-05:002009-07-29T17:12:42.287-05:00Josh, I have one question: Did the churches asking...Josh, I have one question: Did the churches asking you to perform the sacrament know that you were a provisional elder, and not fully ordained? If they did, then they are at fault. But if they didn't (and in my experience, most people simply assume that someone who calls themselves "pastor" is ordained), the the responsibility lies with the pastor to inform (and probably educate) them.<br /><br />PS - I agree that we should re-open the debate and discussion on this.Pastor Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11000874573856215620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20884765.post-30306135864756969292009-03-28T18:37:00.000-05:002009-03-28T18:37:00.000-05:00Hello, are you the Josh who went to Elerslie jr hi...Hello, are you the Josh who went to Elerslie jr high back in 1990? Located in Edmonton Alberta? If so I know you. Do you remember me, my name i Matt we use to snowboard together?sirmixalothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15822203894102800476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20884765.post-50830193093472862592009-02-03T17:33:00.000-06:002009-02-03T17:33:00.000-06:00Josh,It seems so obvious to us their ways are wick...Josh,<BR/><BR/>It seems so obvious to us their ways are wicked...and now to save us from it all, the government will spend its way out of this mess. I have never read where God blessed indebtedness. Thanks for the word.S. T. Hornsbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11241749630111815942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20884765.post-16849303647486156842008-07-03T19:21:00.000-05:002008-07-03T19:21:00.000-05:00I also enjoyed Ted's article. It was refreshing ho...I also enjoyed Ted's article. It was refreshing honest and made you think. We celebrated the fourth here at Squyres last night with fireworks, watermelon and lots of wonderful fellowship. <BR/><BR/>As I said in my recent email to you: I will be posting soon (not sure about what specifically although some thoughts on liturgy/ritual and the contemporary church come to mind.<BR/><BR/>Hey how about a series of post on our ordinations: what they mean to us and what we believe they might mean to the UM church and to the church universal???? Peace, JCspiritstirrerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13270411892743418152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20884765.post-16460138440728000212008-06-25T15:56:00.000-05:002008-06-25T15:56:00.000-05:00I am not sure that we know how to tend to each oth...I am not sure that we know how to tend to each other. To put it another way, I am not sure we know how live as a community. This frustrates the heck out of me also b/c I know that pastors are as much to blame for this situation as congregations. <BR/><BR/>I like the idea of engagement the question is how to do so constructively in the midst of such turmoil. <BR/><BR/>I'll think about this for a while and I am sure we will engage each other on this soon.spiritstirrerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13270411892743418152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20884765.post-13443728308155573912007-12-29T17:33:00.000-06:002007-12-29T17:33:00.000-06:00First, did you write this? Whether you did or not,...First, did you write this? Whether you did or not, I wish I had your way with words. I hope that you will continue to write so that others may share. I love to hear you think. <BR/><BR/>I agree that God knew what he was doing. If we would only follow his example.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00452472371939787718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20884765.post-21660037431526823072007-12-29T13:19:00.000-06:002007-12-29T13:19:00.000-06:00Touchiing. How true that only the wounded can ful...Touchiing. How true that only the wounded can fully understand the wounded.<BR/> ANNAnn W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03280907646185482478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20884765.post-1137964314236840212006-01-22T15:11:00.000-06:002006-01-22T15:11:00.000-06:00This idea of "receiving" is what I find to be cent...This idea of "receiving" is what I find to be central in the task of the pastor. We are to be communicators of God's activity as well as the great gift of being able to receive. This is why the baptism of infants is the model for all baptism. The infant cannot do anything but receive the adult always has the tendency to think that it is up to them.spiritstirrerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13270411892743418152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20884765.post-1137862603603789462006-01-21T10:56:00.000-06:002006-01-21T10:56:00.000-06:00We get ourselves back in losing ourselves for God ...We get ourselves back in losing ourselves for God and others. This is the key insight that we don't hold together well: faith is about giving ourselves up, yes--but in the giving up, we get our best selves back, receving from God's hand what we would never have if we refused to stretch out our own.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00423390450289674502noreply@blogger.com